In Our Communities: Activating a Local Shark Tank Effect

This transcript has been generated by an AI tool. Please excuse any typos.

00:00 - 00:35

I always say the quicker you as an entrepreneur can get from I have an idea to having something that's workable that you share with, whether it's a target group of potential consumers or just with an audience more generally to get feedback, apply that feedback. The quicker you can go through that cycle, the more potential your enterprise is going to have to be successful. This is changing the trajectory. I'm James Thompson, Bernstein's Head of Diverse Market Strategy.

00:35 - 00:41

And I'm Maci Philitas the Emerging Wealth Strategist here at Bernstein. Thanks for tuning in with us today.

00:42 - 01:01

Our guest today is Brandon Andrews. Brandon is an entrepreneur and investor with professional experience that spans government, tech, entertainment and philanthropy. Brandon leads a nationwide casting tour for ABC's Shark Tank and is responsible for many of the people of color who appear on the show and the diversity of the kinds of businesses featured.

01:02 - 01:32

Brandon is also a dear friend of mine, you know, the kind who will come over and help you move and your early days and your career. In addition to that, he is the co-founder and chief product officer of Gage, a mobile market research platform that connects businesses and brands with consumers to make better decisions and avoid mistakes. And also, I'm someone who has been on the receiving end of Brandon's advocacy for businesses founded by diverse owners, and he takes this work very seriously.

01:32 - 01:35

So, Brandon, thanks for joining us today. Welcome to the show.

01:35 - 02:09

Yeah, thanks. I'm so happy to be here and looking forward to the conversation. So, Brandon, your work aligns with so many of the goals we have for the show centering around exposure, providing access, entrepreneurship and generational wealth, building for people of color. So Brandon, let's start from the beginning. You're from a small town in Alabama and went to college in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I'm curious, did your proximity during your college years to where Black Wall Street once existed influence your career path at all?

02:09 - 02:47

Yeah, it's such a great question. Growing up in a small town, South Alabama, Bruton is the name of the town. I didn't really know anything about Black Wall Street specifically or about business more generally. I'd heard of being a business person, but I didn't know what business people did or how to become one. And I certainly hadn't wrap my mind around being an entrepreneur. That's part of the reason why I think the work that I do in media is so important to make sure that we're sharing these stories and making sure that we're connecting people to opportunities and letting people know that these opportunities are for them.

02:47 - 03:34

But as I think about my time in Tulsa and first learning about the Tulsa race massacre and Black Wall Street, I actually met a survivor of the race massacre. We called him that Clark. He went to my church there in Tulsa, and he was 18, 19 years old when the massacre happened. And, you know, one day after our service told the story in pretty vivid detail, his story, what happened, what he experienced running down the street, dodging bullets during the massacre, but also talked about the community, talked about the businesses, talked about the business owners, talked about the personalities that were there.

03:34 - 04:06

And it was there in that conversation with him that I not only first got a full understanding of the history when it comes to Black Wall Street, but I got or began to get an understanding of the power of not just building a business, but connecting a community to economic opportunity, the power that that can have when it comes to building a community that's healthy and also as we get into potentially generational wealth.

04:06 - 04:13

And so that experience there in Tulsa with that, Clark certainly impacted me personally.

04:13 - 04:36

But as I think professionally, I like to think that as I travel around the nation doing casting for Shark Tank and travel around the world doing entrepreneurship and business events that take some of that legacy of Black Wall Street with me, because I certainly was inspired and I hope that that story and certainly the work that I do continues to inspire others to get into business.

04:36 - 04:38

That's really powerful.

04:39 - 04:53

And Brandon, you started your career as a staffer in the Senate. How did you transition from Congress to the impactful work that you do now in business and entertainment and to really share those stories and create those communities?

04:53 - 05:31

Yeah, you know, for me, I've always wanted to create a positive impact. I started my career in government thinking this is perhaps the best way or the best way I knew how, given my experience to make a positive impact, to begin to create the change that we want to see. But I transitioned from government because I saw that there were significant limitations on what government could do, whether it's at a federal level where I was working in the United States Senate as a as a staffer or at the state level or at the local level.

05:31 - 06:04

And so transitioning for me looked like leaving Capitol Hill initially to work during the 2012 presidential campaign cycle. I did get out the vote efforts. I spent some time on the presidential inaugural committee for President Obama's second inauguration and then after that transitioned into doing communications consulting, helping small organizations, sometimes startup organizations, startup companies communicate effectively, but also figure out how to navigate the federal system.

06:04 - 06:57

From there, I got an idea for my first mobile app company, which was called Skill Target Started that ran that had a small exit there. And a mutual friend then introduced me to Mark BURNETT, who of course is the producer of Shark Tank. So I went to a premiere for one of his other projects, and we basically pitched him on the spot and said, Hey, Mark, have some experience as an entrepreneur. My friend who invited me had some experience working with him in the past. Do you need help with Shark Tank? He said yes, but that quickly grew into a nationwide casting tour where we're looking for more diversity in terms of the kinds of companies that we have on the show, but also looking to make sure that the audience watching at home is reflected in the entrepreneurs and the stories that are shared on the show as well.

06:58 - 07:02

Yeah. So you really created your opportunity and your entry point into Hollywood.

07:02 - 07:15

Yeah, I think opportunity is often there and very often it's just up to us to take advantage, to take the risk, and to to bet on ourselves. And when you do that, good things can happen.

07:16 - 07:20

What has kept you so tied to that, the casting portion of the process?

07:21 - 08:28

Yeah, I think one, I love meeting entrepreneurs. I love hearing their stories. And as an entrepreneur myself, I'm always inspired by the stories that I hear to. I love being able to meet people at kind of this critical inflection point for them in their business, whether it's an entrepreneur that's just starting out and maybe this is the first time that they've pitched their business in a formal way publicly at a casting call that we're doing, or if it's a more experienced entrepreneur who's looking to scale their business significantly, who's maybe pitched it a number of times, but feels like if I could just get a relationship, if I could just get a little bit of capital, if I could, just to get potentially a business introduction, I could really blow this thing up and create generational wealth for me and my family, but also create economic opportunity for the community that I come from. And so it's those interactions that really get me excited.

08:28 - 09:22

So I'll be honest, I'm completely jealous of the role that you have with Shark Tank. And since you won't be doing it for ever, just just let me know when that time comes. You know, Maci and I share a goal at the firm, and that is to be part of the wealth creator ecosystem for people of color, which is clearly a driving force for you as well. On Shark Tank, you've given such visibility to entrepreneurs or communities of color who are building successful businesses. People of color are now able to see themselves in primetime, by the way, in these worlds, which often is not viewed as all too tangible within our communities. So it's a it's a pathway for success where we can all agree to that. The exposure hopefully leads to more people starting to build businesses and eventually creating, sustaining and ultimately transferring the wealth, which is what we're all about.

09:22 - 10:17

So growing up in Queens, I had the opportunity to be, I would say, in the sphere of Daymond John growing up in the same neighborhood, seeing the upstart and the cultural influence FUBU once became. You know, our family members who did security for him and and many of the folks within his circle. I never saw this come in. And it's just one of those great success stories. You know, when I think about the rise of FUBU and what it meant, which is for us, by us, I actually see people like us. And you carry that torch, although we're not. The apparel game were definitely trying to to spur these opportunities for communities that look much like ours. Obviously, at the end of the day, Damon made the most profitable deal in short history, which is bombas. Yeah. What can you tell us about that great investment in that great company?

10:18 - 11:00

Yeah. Well, one definitely no surprise that you are where you are and you grew up in the same neighborhood as Damon. I feel like when you have someone like him growing up, even if you don't know them personally, something just like changes in the atmosphere, in the community and it kind of gives people hope and a connection in a different way, even if you weren't directly connected. So that's that's an incredible story. And yet, Damon, John has said to me for years, Brandon, mission driven businesses are the future of business. And he's put his money where his mouth is over and over again.

11:00 - 11:39

You mentioned Bombas, which is, yes, in the history of Shark Tank, the company that has generated the most revenue. So more than some of the more popular companies that kind of came earlier in the history of the show based on this model of selling a pair of socks, which was kind of their hero product and what they were selling when they were on Shark Tank. And it's expanded now. But selling a pair of socks and then giving away a pair of socks because they're the most requested item when it comes to the homeless population in the U.S. and globally.

11:39 - 12:36

Daymond made that investment and he's also made some, some other great ones. I think about Chris Great and Skully, which is a mobile application that helps students find college scholarships. Chris was able to earn over $1,000,000 in scholarship money when he went to college at Drexel University. He had people beating down his door saying, Can you help me do what you did? Because I need money for college. And his capacity to be able to help people, tutoring people was quickly outstripped by the demand. And so he decided to create a tech company that helps people do it. Daymond invested in that company again, a mission driven company, and Chris is doing great. And so I love these Shark Tank stories. I love seeing our entrepreneurs grow over time, but also love seeing the incredible positive impact that these companies have, not just being mission driven, but also on the communities that they come from.

12:37 - 13:07

So when you and I first connected, we talked a little bit about the Shark Tank effect. So if we could just for a few talk nuts and bolts about how can we go about creating the Shark Tank effect within our personal communities, within our own ecosystems? This is very much needed to bring this whole concept back down to a more micro level. So in your mind, how do we create a shark tank effect for our people?

13:07 - 14:01

Yeah. So the first part of the Shark Tank effect isn't necessarily about the companies, but it's about the viewing audience because Shark Tank gives you a window into a world that you'd really not know anything about. Because unless you are an entrepreneur and you're on what might be considered a traditional venture track where you're getting some kind of equity investment in your company, or if you are an accredited investor in the United States before Shark Tank came, you really wouldn't have a reason to know anything about pitching a company or getting an investment. And you might not again see building a business or investing in a company as an option for you. And it absolutely is an option for you, no matter what community you come from.

14:01 - 14:55

The second part, when we think about the Shark Tank effect is a company, an entrepreneur being able to go on Shark Tank and whether they get a deal or not, get their company, get their product, get their service, get their thing that they've built that they think is going to improve people's lives. Getting that in front of millions of people. So I think as a community, we should be thinking, okay, how can we use our platforms, media platforms, our local platforms, whether that's local pitch competitions, pitch night or more formally using media to share positive stories of entrepreneurs, starting companies from the communities that we want to see have an opportunity to build generational wealth. How can we make sure that that infrastructure is there to share those stories?

14:55 - 15:18

And then the last piece is, okay, once you're sharing the stories. Really getting people excited and inspired to potentially start their own thing, making sure that they have the capital and other resources necessary to be able to build the businesses and take whatever their idea forward to hopefully grow, hire, change the community and create that generational wealth.

15:18 - 15:57

And so those capital options, equity investment should certainly be a part of that. We have now equity crowdfunding. That should be a part of that. And we certainly should have more traditional capital options like Kd5, like banks, like lines of credit. We should have all of those options available. And when we do that, we not only create an environment in which people believe that they can do this, believe that they can build a successful business, believe that they can build generational wealth, but we also create the ladders to that opportunity that are necessary to ensure that they can actually reach that goal.

15:57 - 16:22

And so, James, I think the concept of a local shark take effect is incredibly relevant for today and it's an incredibly powerful concept. And maybe that's the show, maybe it's James, Brandon and Maisie go on the road and we take a look at the local shark tank effect. How can we create this effect locally and we measure the impact over time? I'd love to do it.

16:23 - 17:00

That so many entrepreneurs mistakenly think that, you know, equity investments and getting venture capital is really the only way to build a business. And and for so many of those businesses, it's completely inappropriate and your new show but on black which I personally always do I always bet on Black exposes entrepreneurs and the audience to more capital options and also introduces different ways to go about building a business. You already shared a lot about those different financing options, but can you tell us more about that on Black and the kind of resources and financing that you provide to the entrepreneurs?

17:00 - 17:22

Bet on Black is a new TV show just ad season one Bet on Black Features, Black entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs of color from around the nation that are doing three things one, building a business to having an impact, and three, doing it for the culture.

17:23 - 18:09

These entrepreneurs pitch their business to a panel of celebrities that have business experience, and instead of making an equity investment on the spot, our judges rate the pitches one through three for each of the first four episodes, and every person who appeared on one of those episodes would leave with some kind of funding for their business. The winner from those first four episodes would then go on to the finale, where they pitched for a top prize of over $200,000 in non-dilutive capital. And want to underscore non-dilutive, it's basically a grant for their business, so they're not giving up a percentage of their company. It's not an equity deal. So they don't.

18:09 - 18:26

BLACK It's a different model that I think, especially when you think about entrepreneurs of color, are people underrepresented in the space wanting to make sure that these entrepreneurs have as much of their businesses as possible and can be as successful as possible.

18:26 - 18:50

And part of that is maintaining enough equity so that whenever there is a liquidity event, whenever there is an exit opportunity, whenever their business is acquired, however, exit looks like for them that there's enough of the business left there that they can have that generational wealth and have that positive community impact.

18:50 - 19:41

Yeah, I love how the fact that the capital and the financing is non-dilutive because, you know, we hear so many stories about, yes, the company exits, but the founders only owned like 4%. Right. And depending on the size of the of the sale, like that's not necessarily transformational or I've heard about investors who are looking at developing markets. I heard about this one who was offering a $25,000 investment for like a 10% equity stake or 25 equity stake. And I was like, what in the world? You know, I mean, it's downright predatory sometimes. And so the fact that you guys really do advocate for the founders, even when it pertains to the brand and the capital that you award is is really phenomenal. Hey, folks, you should all check out that on black.

19:41 - 19:47

Yeah, definitely check out the episode was the Wrong Revolt and on Revolt YouTube channel if you're interested.

19:47 - 20:13

And I know there's a lot of dynamics when it comes to the economy, but I think one thing that is clear is that the valuations for companies, whether they're on a traditional venture. Track or not. As we look at the next 2 to 3 years, probably aren't going to be what the valuations were over the past decade, like the comps probably aren't going to sync up.

20:13 - 20:38

And so as a founder, it becomes even more important to make sure that you are judicious about equity in your company and that you begin with the end in mind. If your desire is to have an exit, making sure that you begin with a understanding that keeping you know as much of your equity is as possible is going to set you up for financial success in the future.

20:38 - 20:59

It's even more important that we not only share these opportunities or have these opportunities available, but that we do the education through platforms like this to make sure people know about these options and are thinking holistically about how do I build this business, how do I grow this business, and how do I get the resources needed to do it?

20:59 - 21:27

Yeah. And to your point also, that hedge competition model is just so important. I mean, when I was running my start up full time pitch competitions provided us with a tremendous amount of non-dilutive capital to apply to operations. And it was great because we were able to get the capital without necessarily giving up any equity pitch. Competition can really make or break the longevity of a business and the options that a founder has.

21:28 - 22:04

Yeah, and, and when you're doing the pitch competition, you're not only getting the opportunity to get capital potentially for your business, you're also getting the opportunity, if you will, to pitch, to practice pitching, to practice presenting, to get feedback. You know, I always say the quicker you as an entrepreneur can get from I have an idea to having something that's workable that you share with, whether it's a target group of potential consumers or just with an audience more generally to get feedback, apply that feedback quicker.

22:04 - 22:37

You can go through that cycle the more potential your enterprise is going to have to be successful because you're creating that community from the beginning, you're creating that feedback loop from the beginning, and you're creating that virtuous cycle that I think is really necessary. If a company is going to not only grow, but have the processes in place to be able to scale significantly, to be able to again create some of the generational wealth that we'd all love to see more of in our community.

22:38 - 23:03

Yeah, absolutely. Although I will say, you know, folks shouldn't pitch for free. There should always be a tag or something. And Brandon, something that you brought up was, you know, how social media platforms like Clubhouse actually became a platform where entrepreneurs could connect with investors and vice versa, and how it's really democratized access to folks like you and also provided you with access to new tools of deal flow.

23:03 - 23:09

What are some things entrepreneurs and investors should consider when sharing their businesses on social media platforms?

23:09 - 23:44

If you look at it 2020, there were 2.8 million more microbusinesses. So microbusinesses are businesses that are selling products or services and then have a website. 2.8 million more were started in 2020, in 2019, and those businesses were started mostly online, mostly in this virtual space. And so if we can't do these pitch competitions, we can't do events in person because of the pandemic, then let's use these virtual platforms.

23:44 - 24:12

And I specifically met Black Sands Entertainment that was on this past season of Shark Tank. I met them in a room on clubhouse and that company, a black owned business, they create comics and stories based on black history and also based on African history. They actually got on the show and got a deal with Kevin Hart, who we had on the show as a guest shark on this season of Shark Tank.

24:12 - 24:42

The question always is, should you share something publicly that isn't protected? And so the answer there is I much more often see people. Wait until their idea is past the prime moment to strike versus seeing people negatively impacted because they're sharing something in a community space.

24:42 - 25:11

And so, yes, you should absolutely, as an entrepreneur, take steps to protect what you are creating. And so there's a number of ways to do that. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not giving legal advice here. But you should certainly get a trademark as you're thinking about your name and your logo, your DBA. If you have a doing business, ask make sure that you have your filings that are done as you think about anything that could be potentially patented.

25:11 - 25:59

There's two approaches you can treat whatever it is as a trade secret. You can Google kind of how to do that if you want to keep it secret without having to go through a more formal patent process. And then there's also the patent process. When you do your search or have someone do the search for you and then file for patent, get it approved, and then you have the opportunity to be able to go after someone if they infringe upon the patent after it's been awarded. But not having a patent shouldn't stop you from sharing your idea. You should certainly be judicious about how much of your concept you're sharing and who you're sharing it with. However, you're not going to get anywhere with your business if you're not sharing and getting feedback.

25:59 - 26:36

At the end of the day, I've seen much more people lose out because they waited too long versus people losing out because something was stolen or someone decided to try to copy something that someone's created, you know, brand with with you having a front row seat to people's entrepreneurial dreams, we think the audience will benefit from you sharing a list of the do's and don'ts with respect to putting themselves in position to be successful. And I know you've given us some thought for us, so why don't you share that list now? Yes.

26:36 - 27:00

So when it comes to pitching of the business, here's what I'm always looking for. And I think these pieces apply, whether you're pitching your business on a TV show like Shark Tank or Bet on Black or you're pitching in a pitch competition, or even if you're just sharing your company with a group of potential consumers or potential capital option in another space.

27:00 - 27:36

And so the first thing I'm always looking for is passion, looking for passionate entrepreneurs. So not only want to know that you are uniquely qualified, potentially in some way to solve the problem, to take advantage of the market opportunity, but want to know that you're uniquely passionate about doing that. Passion can come out in two ways. I think one way is how you physically present yourself your tone of voice, your intonation. You know, people come on TV shows and do backflips and cartwheels and they bring live animals on that coupon set and all kinds of stuff to try to differentiate themselves from everybody else.

27:36 - 28:13

But passion can also just be the story that you tell. It can be, Hey, I had this issue. I had this problem growing up. Now as an adult, I found a solution to this problem. And now I want to grow this business to help other people who were similarly affected by whatever this issue was that can show passion. So passion is always number one. The second thing is you got to tell us what the problem is or either how you are improving someone's life. If you are have a cupcake business, maybe you're not solving a critical global issue, but you're delivering happiness. You're improving people's lives. You bring a smile to people's faces.

28:13 - 28:53

Next is the solution. So tell us what it is that you're actually creating, what it is that you're actually delivering to market, whether that's a product, service or platform. And the next thing is the market opportunity. So how big do you think this community is of people that may be interested in this thing that you are creating? How have you reached them to date? How do you plan to reach them in the future? And how many of them do you think you can reach, especially if you are looking for capital? If you get that capital, how many of these people do you think you're going to be able to reach and what does that mean in terms of your business model? What does that mean in terms of what you're going to be able to generate in terms of revenue for the company?

28:54 - 29:27

Traction is the next thing, and that's simply the story of how you got from where you started with the idea to where you're at today. Whatever that story is, fraction can come out in multiple ways. If you have a mobile app company, it can be user downloads or, you know, daily active, monthly active users. If you have a consumer packaged goods company or a CPG company that's not capital intensive, it can be sales, but showing traction, it can be intellectual property. So if you have a provisional if you have a trademark, if you have market research that points to the market opportunity. That can show some traction as well.

29:27 - 30:11

And the next thing is to ask and believe it or not to ask is one of the biggest issues that we have at casting calls for any of the shows that I've worked on. People will come in, they'll be passionate, they'll talk about the problem, the solution, the market opportunity, how they're reaching people, their business model, and they'll talk about the attractions or how they got to where they are today. But then they'll try to leave the room without making an ask when the whole point of the show is for entrepreneurs to put themselves in a position to get resources from potential investors or from a potential capital resource. And so don't forget to ask and make sure that you have an ask that's appropriate for whatever audience you in front of.

30:11 - 31:06

And so whenever you get in front of somebody to talk about your business, just like Maci said, there should be a resource for you on the other side, whether you're pitching your business to potential customers, whether you're pitching your business to potential business partners or even to people that that you might want to join your team and work with you on building this company. And especially if you're pitching your business to a capital resource or an investor, you want to know how much money do I need to take my business to the next level? That's going to be different for everybody's business, but make sure that you ask and make sure also, as you're thinking about your asks, you know, sometimes people have an issue assigning a value to something that they've created. You got to look yourself in the mirror and say, Hey, I'm valuable. Whatever I'm creating is valuable. And so when I'm pitching my business, I'm trading value for value with either these customers, with these business partners, with these potential investors. And I think if you do that, it'll set you up on a path for success.

31:06 - 31:24

Wow. I must say, I can really identify with the difficulty with the ask. I feel like that I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but I feel like that could be a whole other episode about yeah, how to ask for what we want and what we need and what we quite frankly deserve. I'm glad you really emphasized that point.

31:24 - 31:43

So Brandon, we have spoken about so much regarding entrepreneurship and venture capital and you have shared so many gems, but we didn't talk a lot about gauge yet. So can you quickly tell us about Gage, why you're passionate about solving this problem and also the problem that you're solving?

31:44 - 32:13

Yeah. Thanks so much for carving out some time to talk about Gauge. So Gauge is a market research platform. Over the years, I've worked in the consulting space and have built a number of strong relationships with executives at companies, really across sectors, entertainment, product, etc. And I appreciated having a seat at the table and being asked questions. You know, what do you think about this new product or service or campaign or hiring decision?

32:13 - 32:48

However, I know that I don't speak for any entire community and after that realization looked at kind of traditional market research options, focus groups, etc., and just found the efficacy wasn't there, they took a long time to put together. The decision cycle for client for these brands is very often in a matter of days, if not hours. And the process of putting together something like a traditional focus group, traditional market research study is weeks or months very often. And so there's just a misalignment.

32:48 - 33:18

And so we decided to use technology to create a better way to connect brands with consumers, and that is gauge. So as a consumer, as a expert, as an influencer, you can join gauge and get rewarded for sharing your feedback, something that you might share on Twitter. You get rewarded for sharing your feedback on Gage Plus. You're going to know it's going to go directly to the decision makers at the brand or at the company who you're sharing an opinion about.

33:18 - 33:55

And on the brand side, we're really helping brands large and small, better connect with the communities. But it's really important to not just take the pulse of a community, to not just tap a community, to not just get feedback. It's important to build a relationship, engage in our broader analytics platform. Next Lab kind of allows people to do that, and so that is gauge.ai as a founder here is certainly going to gauge that and and check us out if you're interested in getting rewarded for sharing feedback or building better relationships with folks in the communities that you want to reach.

33:56 - 34:02

Gauge sounds really powerful and congrats on all of the success you've had on it so far. And I know you will have.

34:02 - 34:05

First of all, Brandon, thanks so much for joining us today.

34:05 - 34:06

It's a little early.

34:06 - 34:11

This conversation has been so enlightening. In fact, James, we need to have a part two at some point.

34:11 - 34:15

I mean, part two is going to be the reality shows. I'm already on it, brother.

34:16 - 34:24

So we know you're passionate about connecting with entrepreneurs. What is the best way for our listeners to get in touch with you?

34:24 - 35:05

Yeah. So I'll be. B Two things. One, you can always reach me on IG and just at yes, brandon y he has been in D.O. and if you're interested in casting, you're interested in sharing your business on TV, you can visit shark pitches, dot biz busy. There's a short form there that comes directly to me. I'll take a look at what you're working on, and if we see some potential, we'll be in touch with you about moving your business forward and potentially getting an opportunity to pitch it on television. And so would love to stay in contact with everyone.

35:05 - 35:44

Definitely. Maci and James, appreciate the opportunity to join you on the podcast and to have this conversation and definitely looking forward to our Part two and where we explore the structure locally. We guys, it sounds like it sounds like a great thing. I hope you enjoy today's episode. We'd love to hear from you, so please email your thoughts, questions and any feedback to diverse markets at Bernstein dot com. Please be sure to share, subscribe, comment on and rate us on Apple Podcasts or anywhere you listen to your podcasts and check us out on Twitter at Bernstein. P. W. M.