Uniting to Support the Quest to Amplify Diverse Voices

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00:00 - 00:30

It's beautiful, right? And we all have that cousin Jo-Jo and Aunt Cheryl. And, you know, now she can be like, baby, baby, you doing such a good job? Your mother tells me about it all the time. Here's $30. You know, take this and do good. Well, guess what? Aunt Cheryl now has a way to put that $30 to work like her. $30 are helping pay one of those actresses that $30 is going to somebody rent because trying to be in New York and be on Broadway is not cheap. So, yeah, that that's what the empowerment looks like.

00:37 - 00:42

This is Changing the Trajectory. I'm James Thomson, Bernstein's head of Diverse Markets Strategy.

00:43 - 01:15

And I'm Maci Philitas, to the Emerging Wealth Strategist here at Bernstein. Thanks for joining us today. We have two wonderful and impactful guests with us today. Gayle Jennings O'Byrne is a venture capitalist and the founder of Wocstar, a venture capital firm that invests in women of color and diverse, inclusive teams in the tech sector. Ron Simons is the founder and CEO of Simon Says Entertainment. He is a four time Tony Award winning producer. They both work to ensure the voices of women of color are heard, supported and amplified.

01:17 - 01:19

So Gayle, Ron, it's great to have you join us today.

01:19 - 01:26

Thank you so much for having me on and letting us have this conversation. It's relevant and it's real and it needs to be had to thank you for that.

01:26 - 01:39

Let's do some storytelling. I don't think our guests know too much about what a Wocstar is. You know, the Wocstar team is on a mission to create wealth for women by funding women. What does Wocstar stand for and what sets it apart?

01:40 - 02:28

Yeah, Wocstar stands for Women of Color Stars. We believe that women are truly rock stars, and if given the adequate and significant, meaningful resources, they can shine. And so we are all about getting them those resources. This was truly a calling to take my Rolodex, my balance sheet, my experience, my energy and passion, and get on the front lines with the sisterhood that is out there building things across the country and across the world. And so we truly are big sisters to these women. So it's more than just a check. It is truly being a sisterhood to these entrepreneurs and founders.

02:28 - 02:28

All right.

02:28 - 02:46

Let's talk a little bit about your backstory, the why behind the work you do. So you grew up in Silicon Valley and you are second generation black women in tech and business industry. Taught us a little bit about how this unique perspective informed a career path and the work you do today.

02:46 - 03:25

You know, growing up in Silicon Valley in the early days of technology, the early days of venture capital, I got to see women in that space and what they were contributing. This is my mother and the women around her. If you saw the movie Hidden Figures, the women in there were using IBM mainframes and COBOL software. Well, that was what my mother was doing for the McDonnell Douglas Corporation building, the F-15 fighter plane and the DC ten, which is the grandfather of the jumbo plane that all of us are now flying, and also was the fighter plane that gave the US such air superiority.

03:25 - 03:49

So I saw the contributions of women of color in technology, in aerospace. And so as I progressed in my education through college, my career on Wall Street, I kept having these aha moments of what women were contributing, but yet the markets weren't investing in. And that really became the why for what I do.

03:50 - 04:26

You think about the technology that we all use today. So much of it is by women of color. The fiber optic cable that's allowing this podcast and zoom to take place, the caller I.D. and call waiting on your phone, the CCTV camera, the Lasik surgery that some of us have had. Those are all inventions by black women. And so that's my way, is to make sure that more that innovation is getting to the marketplace and that we are contributing, as I have seen historically, to the our economy, to our communities, to Silicon Valley, to technology.

04:27 - 05:06

How there's a second side to your back story. And unlike many of the folks we have on our show, not too many of our guests, our fellow people on Wall Street. So in addition to growing up in Silicon Valley, you actually spent 25 years on Wall Street. And during that time, you definitely noticed that there's a common theme of women being systematically excluded. And like many of those guests that we feature on the show, you work diligently now to change those statistics of an individual level of investing, but also to really address things at the systemic level. How do you go about doing that?

05:06 - 05:40

Yeah, that's right. You know, I spent years seeing capital flows in different ways. First, as an investment banker, as mergers and acquisitions banker. But I was in many other departments, right. Media and telecom. I did Pipes, original CBOs and CDOs, you know, all those things people talked about during the 2008 crash. So I saw many ways in which the markets were very efficient in terms of how they allocated and invested capital. And then I got to see it from the policy side legislators, regulators.

05:40 - 06:34

I was an international lobbyist. So not only not for the U.S., but I saw it globally. I saw how world leaders made decisions around money and capital flows. And then I saw it philanthropically. I had almost a decade in global philanthropy doing impact investing and impact work. And in all of that, women and people of color were underrepresented and underinvested. And I thought, my God, if we go back to. Economics 101. Capitalism 121. Investing one two, one. It behooves you to have a diverse portfolio, right? So we're always telling clients we have historical data that shows that if you invest in diverse teams, your ROIC is 30% greater. That women exit about 16 to 30% times faster at higher valuations.

06:35 - 07:08

So when I step back, I had to think there's got to be something else going on that in the face of this information and these entrepreneurs and opportunities, that the market is still not making rational risk adjusted decisions, fiduciary decisions, many cases. Right. Being good stewards of capital. I'm just here to win and win well with people that look and have experiences like mine. And we do that with people that want to win, too.

07:08 - 07:30

You've expressed your belief that in order to move capital in a meaningful way, you've got to change the narrative about black women and black people in general so people can understand why we black people, black women are good people to be investing in. So what, to your mind, should we be emphasizing as we change that narrative?

07:30 - 08:10

It's really simple. Winners, love winners. And we just got a win. And so when we started this fun, I wrote those first checks January 1st, 2020. I went into the office and said, Get me the term sheet, get me the docs, I will sign those. Give me your wire instructions. I will get a check at you. We didn't even really have Wocstar bank accounts yet, but I knew that we had to show that which we spoke of. And so we made those investments. And now, two years later, while we're still fundraising, we're able to show that those companies are winning. We've got one that's filed an S-1 to go public.

08:11 - 08:36

So how do we do it? The parent company is Wocstar Capital, and we do three things. The first is we've got to tell the story differently. I don't know that the markets and people necessarily wake up each day to oppress. I and my sisters and the sisterhood. But I do know the markets are inefficient in terms of how capital is flowing and where it's flowing to and who's the one writing the checks.

08:36 - 09:00

So we've got to tell the story differently because it's not just it is a racism issue. And then we've got to invest and get out of the way of good people that are doing some amazing work. And then we've got a champion for that and making sure that they are ready and prepared for the capital and the opportunities that we know that they're going to knock out of the ballpark. So we champion, we invest and we storytel. That's how we do our work.

09:00 - 09:55

The Wocstar Foundation Wocstar Foundation Board was an effort that came through a conversation with Ron and some of my partners about how do we democratize who can support Bipoc plays and creatives. Now, Ron has made a career of it, a very successful career of it. I happen to be in a place where I can write some checks, but we as a community should be able to help, participate and support our bipoc and black creatives and bipoc and black stories. But yet we often don't get asked to. We get asked to buy a ticket and get some popcorn and some soda and sit down and watch it. Right. And be thankful. But we don't get to participate in what gets on screen, what gets on stage, what gets on radio.

09:55 - 10:20

. Right. And so the Wocstar Foundation is our attempt to change that and make it so that all of us can participate and support black and brown plays black and brown creatives and filmmakers and playwrights and actors and actresses. Daily spot on. It's so important that we can start to change that narrative.

10:20 - 10:30

So Ron, let's talk about you and your background a little bit. Can you share your journey with us and give our listeners a feel for your path to the production world?

10:31 - 11:11

Sure, it's a long and winding road, so bear with me. You know, I went to college, going to be a doctor, came here to New York City to attend Columbia. And then when I graduated, I started in technology. So I was a software engineer developing software first for manufacturing systems. And then I became an engineer developing A.I. software for over 500 companies and had a couple of different things happen. I went and got an MFA and an MBA, and then I moved back to New York and I started acting and I still occasionally do act, but the vast majority of my time is producing.

11:11 - 11:52

In about 29, I, I was realizing that the kind of stories that are being told weren't particularly diverse, and the quality of the roles, from my point of view, were not indicative of the kind of stories that I wanted to tell. So I said, Hey, you know what? I'm going to be a producer, because only thing I knew about producers is that they make stuff happen. So I said, okay. And then I just said, Hey, everybody, I am a producer. And then people just started sending me stuff, right? And before you know it, I had a film that I ended up producing called Night Catches US with Anthony Mackie and Kerry Washington. And then I got into Broadway, beginning with Porgy and Bess or Adam McDonald won her fifth Tony Award.

11:52 - 12:16

And then I had to look back, says, you know, and in that process, I came to realize that I was really focused on telling the story of underrepresented communities. So that's why Simon says entertainment motto is Tell every story, the stories that have normally been either overlooked or oversimplified and weren't really the authentic voices that should be represented.

12:16 - 12:58

And so now I'm moving into even more spaces. We launched a new NFT that is in the web free space. Of course, I've created a new entity with my producing partner, Valencia Yearwood, called Black PRISM. And our goal is to be a multi investing and multiple venue production company. So we're going to start again with the Nfts and then we're going to expand outward, right? And the goal is still to support all stories, but particularly the stories in this case of black people and getting in the burgeoning market of Web3. So that's what that encapsulates. So that's how I got to here, where I am today.

12:58 - 12:59

That's incredible.

12:59 - 13:56

One of the things that we're focused on is building a community around black Broadway and expanding from there. The idea is to bring more attention to not only the content for people of color, by people of color, but also bring people of color and. Not people of color to support the creatives that we support. So we want to be able to support the young artists, be they directors or writers, screenwriters or plays. We want to be able to support visual artists by the work that we do. And so by that then all boats rise from our point of view. I feel as though if we can make sure that people are aware of the opportunities to support communities of color from an art in an artistic venue, then we can have a positive influence on all of society.

13:56 - 14:30

Like for Colored Girls, I said. Do I want black girls to see this? Absolutely. You know, to see themselves represented on stage. But as I said, you know, I want to see, you know, this 45 year old white Ohio guy who may not have the kind of exposure to black women to come in and maybe learn a thing or two. And by doing that, that's we can chip away at the ignorance, because the ignorance and and hate fueled racism as we know, that's what we are able to do. So basically, I am a an activist through my storytelling.

14:30 - 14:31

I think that's amazing.

14:31 - 14:51

And speaking of For Colored Girls. You recently produced the Broadway revival of the groundbreaking masterpiece, which just ended in an acclaimed Broadway run this month. So this play is of seminal importance in our community. What would you say is its significance? Aside from what you already mentioned.

14:52 - 15:40

It was a compendium of historic things that happened, right? Because Camille Brown was the first black woman to both choreograph and direct a play on Broadway in 65 years. 65 years. Also, it was historic because unlike many other plays that have been revived, because they were so successful for Colored Girls who considered suicide when the rainbow was seen, that had never been revived. So basically it opened in 1976 and had a great run over two years. And then when it closed, it was long and forgotten. And because I know the material is still relevant today, it was very important to me that we get this story back out. So 46 years was just too long for a revival of this extraordinary piece of theater.

15:41 - 16:07

I feel that we are impactful because women and girls in particular come to the theater and they see and hear themselves through authentic voices. And the authenticity of voices is very important in storytelling. You know what I mean? So from my point of view, that's what I care most about moving the needle, changing the world. One play at a time. One film at a time. One web portal at a time.

16:08 - 16:43

Yeah. And I was really excited that the Wocstar Foundation was able to invest in the play because it really was touching on topics that are so relevant to today. If you think about mental health in our communities, if you think about women's reproductive rights, if you think about all of these issues around class and economy and our roles in all of those spaces, those are topics that need to be discussed again and again.

16:43 - 17:09

And so for people that make up the Wocstar Foundation, it was really important that we participate and support this play. So if anyone who's listening wants to participate, I say go check it out. Because the things that Ron's producing, the things that Ron's supporting, we now have a way that we can support him and all the other creatives and stories out there.

17:10 - 17:46

I think that's really energising, Gayle. Ron has educated me so much on Broadway, how things get done, how things get produced, and then the challenges. One of the things that we've continue to talk about is how to get people involved. You know, we're we're at the point where I finally understand how that happens through a relationship with Wocstar as an example. What has it meant for you to be supported in this way and in a way that has elevated your ability to amplify the voices that you want to amplify?

17:47 - 18:42

Well, I have to say, what Gayle has done is a major significance to the area of entertainment that I work in, because normally we bring on investors to do the capitalization for, say, for example, Broadway shows. And what we often are asked almost immediately is what is the ROI? And the ROI is important for just about any investment strategy. But I feel that the arts and Broadway really operate more from a patronage point of view. So I tell people, if you want to write, then go talk to my friend in Seattle. I got a woman here in New York who can set you free. But if you want to invest in something where you could make a good amount of money and you can do good and you can have a tax write off, if nothing else, then you should come to me.

18:42 - 19:23

But what's so significant about what he was doing is it now gives an option for people who say and there are people who want to support the arts through donation, they want to make a charitable contribution. And that's what ALA has enabled so that we now can invite people to the table who may not be interested is so much in the investment but are happy to write a check for $50,000, which is one of the things that happened with the girls. They did not want to invest, but they said we are more than happy to donate to the cause and support the kind of stories that you're doing, which is immense and amazing and just gives more options for us to be able to support our own stories.

19:24 - 20:16

Yeah, and I think the other side of this is that there's such a empowering feeling, you know, as a community. Bipoc communities are some of the most charitable communities out there, whether it be tithing through their church, whether it be through their alma mater or through the social programs that they support. We're very giving charitable giving community. What we typically have not been is a. Charitable in those forms of the type of art that Ron is talking about. And so when we share this with people and there's a lot of education that we still need to do, people get very excited and empowered that they now can support the stories that they their children can go and see in a very different way, as opposed to always having to be consumers of these products that are put out there.

20:16 - 21:01

And if we think about where we sit right now in our economy. And the forecast around what the next couple of quarters look like. I worry about if inflationary measures continue, if recessions are truly around the corner, that the things that might start to get pinched and contracted are the sponsorships, the corporate funding, the investors who might say, you know what, I'm going to just sort of sit this quarter too out. And so it's even more important that in these years, when things might get a little more volatile, a little choppier, that we're there to step up and support the creatives in the way that they need to be.

21:01 - 21:02

Yeah.

21:02 - 21:31

You know, living in a wealth management space as Maci and I are, and really working very closely with multicultural communities and investors and families, you hit the nail on the head. Even when we think about the intentionality behind how we all want to invest, even if it's in a capital markets, there is this sense of leveraging whatever affluence we have, however you define that, to influence the things you care about the most.

21:31 - 22:12

And conceptually, when you think about community and social impact and equity and equality. Again, I just want to commend you guys for thinking about ways to allow, in many instances, the common person, not necessarily a huge entity or organization, to be able to help amplify the voices. I feel that that is a very ingenious way just to allow people to put their money to work in many instances, not looking for retirement. Right, just finding the right type of platform to influence the messaging and the impact that they want to have.

22:12 - 22:40

So it's beautiful, right? You know, and we all have that because and Jojo and Aunt Cheryl and, you know, now she can be like, baby, baby, you doing such a good job. Your mother tells me about it all the time. Here's $30. You know, take this and do good. Well, guess what? Aunt Cheryl now has a way to put that $30 to work like her. $30 or helping pay one of those actresses. That $30 is going to somebody rent because trying to be in New York and be on Broadway is not cheap.

22:41 - 23:15

So, yeah, that that's what the empowerment looks like, right? And so we start to get black churches, we start to get black colleges to support creatives. You're going to see really good quality stories being told. They all been real humble on this call. But Ron's play For Colored Girls was nominated for seven Tonys. Amazing. I mean, we talk about the quality of the work that he and his team are putting on stage. Bar none. It's some of the best. We have a way to support and make more of those come out.

23:16 - 23:54

And I just want to say, in support of what Gayle says, I'm over the moon, that now we can actually lower the bar for investment of donation because in the past, you know, the entry was about 25 K for most Broadway shows. Right. And we couldn't accept a check for $5,000. But now with Gayle and her foundation, it enables, you know, mere men and women to just say, hey, you know what, here's 20 $500. And I feel that I'm now giving back to my community the voices and the stories that I want to see told. And I didn't have to raise you know, I don't have to go look for another $23,000, you know, to make that happen. That's huge.

23:54 - 24:30

But she gave all of the work that you're doing through Wocstar and the Wocstar fund is just so incredibly important. And we need to, as a community, support people like you who are creating avenues for wealth and wealth creation for people of color. So we have the tools in our community to uplift ourselves, but we also need more black investors to win with us so that we can have more success stories like Ron's and For Colored Girls Run on Broadway. So that being said, how do we work more effectively to close these gaps?

24:30 - 24:56

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to education and familiarizing. You're right. When people talk about the wealth gap or the investment gap, we have all the tools in our community and we think about talent and we think about treasure and resources. We have it all in our community, but we've got to get better at informing and familiarizing ourselves about this.

24:56 - 25:55

Here's a little dirty secret in the Wocstar fund. Most of my investors don't look like me or the women we're investing in. And what I just say real diplomatically, what I said was, black girl is investing money in black women. It's going to make the bro's and other people even richer than they are. And I'm okay doing that because that's the process and that's how we do this. A gosh would be really cool if we could expand the diversity of the investors so that other people are also benefiting from the success and the returns and the r y and outperforming market returns that we're achieving. That's the day when we really are getting to a place of parity and inclusion. But a lot of that work is on us, in our communities, ourselves, right? So, yes, we have more to do in terms of educating and familiarizing people with this asset class, that asset that is Ron and his team.

25:55 - 26:24

Right. The creatives that are out there across the country, not just here in New York, but across the country, because we do support things nationally. But the other side of it is. We've got to lower the on ramps. And so that's what's so innovative about the Wocstar Foundation. As Ron said, it's lowering the on ramp, not the not the quality. Right. But just the access points to get onto the freeway.

26:24 - 27:18

Yeah, because even when I think about my family, my husband and I have wanted to invest in Broadway for a while, but we didn't realize that we could participate. Okay, great. I'm going to say I never do. I mean, we we collect art because we found black artists of the African diaspora who meet our price point. We had no idea that we could get into investing it in Broadway for less than $10,000. That accessibility was just unknown. And so as you continue with Wocstar Fund, how are you demystify this process to invest in Broadway? How can you get both kind of give us some insight so that people like me can now walk away with understanding the steps we can take to participate and support these incredible works of art that you are producing?

27:19 - 28:04

Yeah, I mean, it comes down to education, right? And it comes down to showing success. And so Ron is very accessible and is always out there talking about this work. Right. Showing what's happening behind the scenes. Right. I, too, didn't know about this space until Ron really sort of held my hand and walked me through that. And so now we've got to do that with more people. And, you know, part of what Ron and I are about is system change, right? It's one thing to support one play or one playwright or one artist, you know, on Broadway. off-Broadway. But we think about the system, we think about the community. And so we're trying to think of new ways to educate more people about this space.

28:04 - 28:50

The other side of it, though, I would say, is we've got to get out of our old way and I'm going to be real, real here. We all say we support folks in our institutions like Howard. But if a real honest if that acceptance letter came from Harvard the next day, I think we know there might be a different conversation had at the dinner table, but we're Jewish going. So we as a people have to get real comfortable with what success looks like, how we define success, who we allow to be successful, and who we're going to support on that journey. You know, so often I get in meetings and Silicon Burrows get checks and I get offers for bootcamps and training programs.

28:50 - 28:51

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

28:51 - 29:15

Right. And then they really change, like how we support each other. We are in all the places and spaces now. We have to get confident and bold and comfortable. In those seats to bring others in and support others. That's a work we all just have to do ourselves. I can't do that work for everybody, but everybody needs to do that work for themselves.

29:15 - 29:51

I completely agree. I know education in general is one of my pet peeves. And of course, education in our communities is at the top of that list. Right. So what I talk to black folks about, particularly those who have some influence and or resources, is mentorship because it's their entertainment that's really, really important because of, Simon says, entertainment. There are three black women who are now Broadway producers who would not have been there before. And significant is because there's only a handful of black Broadway producers out of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of producers who produce on Broadway.

29:51 - 30:30

So I always encourage people I can bring on mentees through my efforts. So I've got like eight black women who are mentoring, who are now going off and started creating their own projects, raising their own moneys. And that's how we make change, right? That we actually put our money where our mouth is, right? So I can do more of that if there are more people who would support things like Wocstar assignments and attainment. I'm not pro Reagan, but there is a trickle down effect that's happening here. Right? That is important to acknowledge. And it can have a huge ripple effect far down the line to the woman who is on stage.

30:30 - 31:13

I have one more question. That's kind of brass tacks. Essentially what you all are saying is that through Wocstar Foundation, we can all kind of become angel investors and Broadway. But something that I learned, especially through the work I was doing through I look like an investor. Is that the key, though, is you can have the money, but you need to have access to the deal flow. You need to know where to find these plays. So for our listeners who don't know you personally, where can they go to access this deal flow? How can people start to navigate the space and find the access to the plays that they can consider for their own investments?

31:13 - 32:04

Well, I think that you should definitely look into Wocstar, because the mission of that network foundation is just extraordinary. But I'm personally very accessible. So if you send an email through our website or just directly to info at Simons Entertainment dot com, I can do any number of options to help. Right. Because what I did for each of my last few shows is I would do these virtual salons. We have, you know, someone from the production would be at the director or the writer, you know, at gets online and has an introduction to people who have never otherwise even been exposed to the possibility of investing. And so I feel like that's part of the education that we do. A service is entertainment. And now that was so successful, I now want to just offer that periodically. So I feel like that's one way to actually be engaged and be involved.

32:05 - 32:52

And I would just add to that, if people are interested in investing in bipoc women tech startups, they should come to the Wocstar dot com. That's where the Wocstar fund information is. If people want to get involved in supporting plays and creatives and storytellers, then they should go to Wocstar Foundation dot org. And I say that because it's a journey and I want people to have a great experience and I think they should start with platforms and professionals like Ron and I who are doing this work before they venture out and get approached about one play, write a big check and then, you know, might have a bad experience and don't know what happens, you know?

32:52 - 33:04

Before we wrap up, I've got just a final question for each of you. Might make Ron uncomfortable in a good way, but Kayla, just in a few seconds, what's next for Wocstar? Wocstar Foundation.

33:04 - 33:38

Wocstar Foundation is more plays, more supportive creatives, and we've got a big campaign that we're going to be launching next month. We're going to be asking people to donate so that we can get ready for the fall creative calendar. On the Wocstar Fund, we are still onboarding investors. So if anyone is interested in investing, please reach out to us via Wocstar dot com because we've got some great exits, i.e. we're going to be returning capital to people in the coming quarters. And so people want to participate in that. We need to hear from them before end of summer.

33:38 - 33:53

And Ron, you're just way too humble, bro. You've done a lot of great stuff people won't be able to see, but you got awards behind you. Can you just articulate just for a little bit some of the acknowledgements in awards you've received over your career?

33:53 - 34:32

Honestly, you were right. I'm comfortable. Okay, so so I've got four Tony awards behind me. I am looking at also Drama Desk Award. I have one as well as Drama League awards, Critics Circle Awards. I've got pretty much an award in every area of awards that are given for Broadway. It's pretty much to me a testament that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, right? Because I can't plan to win any award and I don't do the work that I do for an award. But I do know good story when I see it.

34:33 - 35:01

So to gain this point of working with professionals, it's important that you understand as much as you can about who you're partnering with. Because if they have no awards at all and they've been doing this and I'm only been doing this for like a dozen years, and so to have like four films premiere at Sundance and three of them in competition is a testament to the fact that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And then I know good stories for us. That's really important.

35:01 - 35:03

And now you're Dr. Ronald.

35:03 - 35:20

I know. How crazy is that? Oh, yeah. This past weekend at Emory University of Washington, where I got my MFA in acting awarded me, I guess they called it bestowed upon me an honorary doctorate of the arts. So now I am Dr. Ronald Simons.

35:20 - 35:48

I just wanted to as my kids, I just wanted to give you both your flowers. You guys are doing tremendous work through Wocstar Fund, through Wocstar Foundation, and all the work you're doing. Dr. Otto do Simon says entertainment. So, you know, we definitely just want to thank you for for joining us. We certainly really appreciate you guys bestowing yourselves upon our show and our listeners. So thank you very much.

35:48 - 35:49

Of course.

35:49 - 36:03

And and thank you for being leaders in your own right. You guys are in positions of power and decision making and influence and how you are intentional about that work supports all the things that we're doing. So thank you.

36:04 - 36:22

Hope you enjoyed today's episode. We'd love to hear from you, so please email your thoughts, questions, any feedback to diverse markets at Bernstein dot com, please be sure to share subscribe rates on Apple Podcasts or any where you listen to your podcasts and definitely check us out on Twitter at Bernstein P.W..