How Donna Orender Learned to Drown Out the Noise

Audio Description

Sports executive Donna Orender went from inking billion dollar deals at the PGA Tour to dialing for dollars as head of the WNBA. She shares the advice that helped her turn the league into the thriving venture it is today.


This transcript has been generated by an A.I. tool. Please excuse any typos.

00:06 - 00:57

Welcome to Women and Wealth. I'm Beata Kirr, Co-Head Investment Strategies at Bernstein and this show aims to educate and inspire women to make the right choices for their wealth. Donna Orender has been recognized as one of the top ten most powerful women in sports and one of Newsweek's 100 most influential people in sports. Prior to serving as president of the WNBA for six years, she spent nearly two decades at the PGA Tour, where she led global production, programming, digital and brand in the office of the Commissioner. She's also been a lifelong advocate for women and girls. Today, I'm really excited to be sitting down to have a conversation with Donna, to talk about her incredible career and get her take on one of the most high profile exits of women in sports. Donna, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us today.

00:58 - 01:00

Oh, are you kidding? I'm delighted. Delighted. Thank you.

01:01 - 01:20

Well, let's get started. Your career and all that you've done has been so interesting. And the concept and talk track around women in sports today feels particularly relevant. We're recording this right during the U.S. Open, and Serena has been playing. So, we'll come back around to talking about Serena's exit.

01:21 - 01:30

Her evolution, by the way, her that's what I think is so important for all of us to think about our life on a continuum and we evolve into different places. Right.

01:30 - 01:48

You are so right to jump in with that. You were so right. Because even when Gayle King was interviewing her at center court, she made a point of mentioning that that that is the key word. It's not retirement, its evolution, it's not exit. We talk a lot about transitions on this show. So, thank you, Donna, for picking up on that.

01:48 - 02:17

Well, obviously, Donna, you are a person that is not afraid to say what you believe and speak up for what you want. Legend has it. When we were looking into your history that your high school did not have a girls tennis team, so you made it known that you wanted to play and you played with the boys. Ultimately, you found your true passion on the basketball court. Let's just talk about your history playing sports before we talk about where you played. Tell us a little bit about your involvement.

02:17 - 02:55

When I was a girl, I just loved to play. I loved to compete. I loved the physical, the sensation of being physical. Right. And also the fact that not only did I have to think about how I wanted to continually push myself to be better, but I also realized that I was part of something that was bigger than me at the same time. So as athletes, you are singularly focused on your performance and you want to be as great as you can be. But at the same time, understanding, especially when you play a team sport, you are part of and have responsibilities to other people. It's just this beautiful insight into your exterior existence.

02:55 - 03:20

And of course, it wasn't one that girls were encouraged to have when I was growing up, and I often reflect, right. Why did I want to do that then? And what gave me the courage to say, hey, you know, you have this, I want this, I want to play? I don't know. Maybe it comes from just this idea that if you can create physical mastery of yourself or mental mastery, it gives you confidence to be in the world in a bigger way. I don't know.

03:20 - 03:33

I love it. And a lot of commonality with what I'm hearing the women at the U.S. Open talk about this week, this drive to win and competitiveness and even in an individual sport like tennis, in many ways feeling part of something bigger.

03:33 - 04:02

So let's talk about your basketball career. So just for our listeners to get a sense of what you've done, you are an all-American playing for Queens College. Not only was Queens College one of the best teams in its day, but it was the first women's team to be invited to play at Madison Square Garden. You then went on to play in the first women's professional basketball league. So tell us about that experience, all of those experiences and really what surprised you the most about it?

04:02 - 04:55

First of all, I love the game of basketball. I love all sports. I played in the Rucker League up in Harlem. Wherever I could play, I wanted to play. And then when I ended up, I had the good fortune of going to Queens College. It wasn't my first choice of colleges. I got an academic scholarship to the University of Chicago, but I wanted to play at the highest level. And our coach, Lucille Ball, is God bless her, she's still around, was one of the great leaders and innovators in the women's game. And we were one of the best teams in the nation all four years. And there's something about competing at an elite level that's special. It's also understanding where you fit in in the world. I always like to talk about that every single day. We're all given messages and giving messages about who's worth more than and who's worth less then. And it was clear to us that while we didn't feel we were less than the way the world viewed us was less then in terms of the resources and the kinds of benefits that you would get as an athlete.

04:55 - 05:16

And yet we were invited to be the first women's team to play ever in the Mecca of basketball. All recognized, I would say, from around the world at Madison Square Garden. And that really was kind of like being knighted by the queen. You know what I mean? Let me knight you. You all have showed us that you are worthy of playing in this palace, if you will.

05:17 - 05:19

So that's a good surprise.

05:19 - 05:21

That was a great surprise.

05:21 - 05:22


05:22 - 06:11

Obviously, there's many aspects of athletics for women that are not equal and that are quite sobering and can be negative surprises. But I'm glad we started out with a positive. But perhaps we could pivot to your post basketball career where you became a corporate executive at the PGA Tour. And here, like in many other industries, you were often the only woman in the room. So, there's been a lot of studies that talk about women executives and how many of them have had a history in sports and in team sports in. There's a very high correlation there. I think it was an Ernst and Young study that showed I think it's 94% of women in the C-suite have played a team sport. And so, of course, I'm thinking about that parallel. And how did you think you approach things differently as a female executive at the PGA?

06:11 - 06:54

Well, I mean, there's two points I'd like to make. One, I often quote the why study. It was in my TEDx talk, even because if you work in corporate America, or at least coming up in the time that I did a lot of the talk in the halls of these monoliths buildings is the talk of sports, right? Everyone talks about team and winning and losing. Like there's just all these parallels. And most of the guys you work with had sports experience. When I walked into the PGA Tour, I did walk in as a professional golfer. Golf wasn’t one of even my considerations yet, but I walked in as an athlete, a professional athlete, somebody who was committed and excelled at the most elite level. I understood how athletes thought.

06:54 - 07:42

I came from a media background. Having worked at a global media company, one of the best networks in our country. I worked at a Challenger brand that was building technology, and then, most importantly, I worked out of my own pocket, I had my own company even. And so, by the time I got to the tour, I felt like I had experience and skills and that I was a competitor and that while a lot of these guys had pictures of like golfers in their wallets because they were wannabes, the only thing I wanted to be was the best I can be. It wasn't like I wanted to be Jack Nicklaus, although I am proud to see him to this day and can call him a friend. I wanted to be the best executive. I wanted to make a difference and create change, and I think playing sports gave me confidence to make that intentional step towards my career.

07:42 - 07:49

And do you think there is a different approach that you took as a female executive versus the others, or was it similar?

07:49 - 08:42

Oh, you know, that's hard to say. I felt isolated, candidly. I mean, it was me and 31 guys. I loved them, most of them. But it was challenging because I was so different. I remember going into the commissioner's office one day and they said, Listen, I know I am different than everyone else. I think I think differently. But you can say I think differently. Most cases I look differently. I'm from a different place. I'm a different religion, I'm a different gender. So, I felt kind of alone. And he said to me, you know, don't change, be who you are. And that's okay. And it gave me a wide expanse of permission to just go after things, to be creative, to think out of the box. I mean, I think I remain very proud of the fact that PGA Tour Radio, which is a part of Sirius XM today, was one of the, you know, innovative media ideas that I brought forward.

08:42 - 09:20

And if you thought 25 years ago about golf on radio, what you what you just said, that's crazy, which everyone said. But I grew up listening to baseball in my garage with my dad. And I loved how you can travel with your radio anywhere. And golf had you tethered to the TV, which is good. We want ratings, obviously, and we built our television and our streaming all those businesses. But the idea of like See and I, I found a great partner and in fact, I'm friends with that guy to this day. Eric Logan And its difference making. And I think that I had permission to do those things there because I was different.

09:20 - 09:21

That's terrific.

09:21 - 09:54

I'm glad you shared that story about your honesty, about being the only, because a lot of studies show that when you're the only for whatever set of reasons, whether it's gender or racial or ethnic differences or neurodiverse differences, that it oftentimes doesn't work out because people don't like feeling. The only and I like your your story is very uplifting in that sense because you had the permission to be yourself, like you said, you were your authentic self and it worked out for you and, and then you got a lot of exciting things done which then continued to the WNBA, right? Yeah.

09:54 - 09:55

So yes, yeah.

09:55 - 10:17

Maybe it's a good transition to talk about that when NBA Commissioner Adam Silver in 2000. Five after a number of years that the PGA tapped you to take over and the league was struggling. Whereas the PGA Tour was a very successful franchise. So tell us more about the decision to go from one to the other and what convinced you to take that leap?

10:17 - 11:09

Yeah, I always joke that I went for, you know, selling multimillion dollar negotiating $1,000,000,000 deals to dialing for dollars, because that's what it felt like when I got to the WNBA. But I felt compelled. I felt like, first, I am where I am today because I was an athlete. And I still feel that you know if you ask me, who are you? I'm an athlete. I'm going to go talk to 900 team girls in a couple of weeks in Portland, Oregon. And I'm going to tell them that they're going to look at me like they are really you. It's hard for us to think, but whatever is instilled in you as a competitor, right? I'm an athlete. So, I felt like here I had all these benefits, and it was time for me to pay it forward. And that's what facilitated my interest and desire to go work for the WNBA, because by this time I have been so immersed in men's golf. I mean, I'm still immersed in it in many, many ways, although now I'm also working on behalf of Young, the up and coming developing women professional golfers.

11:09 - 11:51

It was a real culture shock for me. Tremendous culture shock, I guess I didn't understand, although I did. Maybe I didn't as much as I did then. Okay. Was the amount of racism, sexism, homophobia, how the world really felt about women and girls? And it wasn't pretty. It really wasn't pretty. It doesn't mean and I always use this because I love this film anyway. There was the good, the bad and the ugly. There's the good, the bad and the ugly about men and how they approached it. But there's a lot of good and there's the good, the bad and ugly about women. And there is a lot of good, but there was bad and there was surprisingly ugly. And the amount of all of that I had not experienced before I came to the WNBA.

11:51 - 12:26

And so I got schooled pretty quick and then dug in and said, Hey, there's no way that this league is not going to make it. There's just no way everyone was predicting it. I'll never forget I got a call and it was in our trade magazine. We like number one. We know which league is going to fold first. And we were number one and I called up the guy again, still friends with them, apoplectic. The more you say this out there like the more you can. You're creating an environment where people expect it to happen and it's not going to happen. And of course, it didn't happen. And there were so many other leagues that went down. And of course, now you see the WNBA thriving. So, hey, take that.

12:27 - 12:43

So let's go back to this time. I'm intrigued. I want to I want to learn more. How many years were you at the PGA when you made this transition? 1770, very long time with a very well established franchise. Like you said, a very different demographic.

12:44 - 13:06

Was, you know, listen, it wasn't when I first got there, wasn't that established we were like a Challenger brand, you know, we were one of the top four or five, maybe six, whatever. So, you know, invested a tremendous amount time, energy, resources in trying to help build it to being more established, more successful. But there was clearly a lot more money and resources than what the WNBA had for sure.

13:07 - 13:29

Mhm. Right. So help us scale this. Right. So you're leaving the PGA and then you're going to the WNBA. I mean how, how do we give our listeners some visuals on this, the magnitude of the organization or the revenue associated with it at that time? And after so long and an established career with an organization, it really was a huge leap to go to the WNBA.

13:29 - 14:26

So, here's a visual. I have a corner office in the office of the commissioner. I have access to the plane whenever I would need to go places. And we traveled a ton. I live in Jacksonville, Florida, but I didn't feel like I really lived here like I do now because we were always traveling someplace. I used to say that I when I got to the WNBA, I had a $2 million budget shortfall, which felt like a tip on the PGA Tour. And of course, everything that's happening in men's golf now around money, you would think to really, I could never make it up on the WNBA. I mean, it was just extraordinary about the inability at the time. I mean, we brought a lot of new money and new companies and new relationships in to show a vitality and a connection that says we are here to stay. But it was so much more difficult. So much more difficult. And it really was because people did not believe there was a core group and we built on that core.

14:26 - 15:13

Bruv, I always talk about building belief systems, and I think we did that. Obviously we did because we're still there. But people, one don't want to be that there's so many people that don't want to be the first. And if everyone thinks you're going to go out of business, we don't want to be the one to go out of business. So you have to get the people who are your first line adopters and we got those and then you have the second and there's a core that loves it now, right? You start out wanting to talk about Serena, I love you for that. Right? We want we should talk about the prime time game for the NWSL for their championship. We should talk about Google just announcing that they're going to add more World Cup women's basketball games than ever in history. I mean. There is clear, positive movement. But for those of us and I always have to thank Billie Jean King even before me and there's so many others. This has been a heavy lift and we're not done. We're certainly not done.

15:13 - 15:15

And then when did you leave the WNBA?

15:15 - 15:39

I left after six years. And every day the question was, when is it going to fall? It was always going to fall. This is going to make it. And then having to listen to all this noise and I always say this, I'm so grateful that David Stern taught me how not to listen to the noise. And I laugh only. But God rest his soul is because he was part of the noise at some point, even though this has been. This is his true legacy.

15:39 - 16:27

Right. One of his real legacies is the WNBA. And so I put my head down and said, we're just going to make this happen. And everything they said could happen did. Right. Attendance rose, which was the number one thing. Ticket sales group sales rose, merchandise rose or sponsorships were one of the highest in the nation. Of course, the greatest gift, in addition to the WNBA, was we got it during the recession when everybody cut back. But we were able to build our sponsorships. We were able to have the highest ratings to this day other than opening year. To this day, the highest ratings were during that window. And so we were able to really build a belief system and deal it with real performance that showed that this can work. And after I got to that point, I have kids. My kids were seven when I started, so they were going into high school. It was time to come home. It was really time to come home.

16:28 - 17:07

Well, congrats. I'm glad we spent the time talking about your journey there and the real contrast between the PGA and the WNBA. And I think there's a lot of lessons and wisdom in what you've said that don't you know, don't listen to the noise. Right. The David Stern comment is so relevant. We spend a lot of time on the show with women founders and entrepreneurs and women in transition. And that message carries over regardless of where you're at. Right. The being the only pushing forward, having confidence in yourself, drowning out the noise and moving it on up. And so really congrats to you on on what you achieved this week at both the PGA and WNBA.

17:07 - 17:39

But another thing, Donna, that I think our listeners should focus on, I know you'll say it when we talk about Serena and otherwise, but we all need to support women's sports that there is a reason that the WNBA came in at such a, you know, relative disadvantage to the PGA is that you don't have the ticket sales that you have at the NBA, you don't have the sponsorships. And, you know, the question is how many of us are going to attend women's sports and paying for those tickets? So for everybody that wants that equality, I think we all have to participate.

17:39 - 17:39

Without a doubt.

17:39 - 17:41

Everybody go buy tickets.

17:41 - 18:14

Without a doubt. But we also have to understand, go buy tickets. Watch the games. Right. Totally support. Billie Jean did that for us. She showed us how it worked in women's tennis. Right. We have Molly now as league commissioner was the commissioner at the LPGA showing us the way we have some great leadership in women's sports. Oh, Jessica Berman. Now, the NWSL, I mean, there's really good things happening. But I also want to remind us, it's more than just that. We have to understand kind of the environment we living in. And I'll never forget the story because I think it's telling and you probably can make it even more relatable.

18:15 - 18:59

I was at ESPN. They do this thing called a car wash in leadership. You go up and you meet with all of their different media talent and they talk to you about your business. And so I had 100 ESPN employees and one woman waves her hand and she said, You know, I play basketball, but I'm not interested in the WNBA. And you kind of look around and say, Well, thank you for sharing, but let's talk about why, like LeBron James, like one of the biggest sports stars in the world, Nike was paying him at the time $94 million to wear their sneaker. While they're investing of that much money, how much do you think they're spending in media behind that? And so, every day when any young girl plays basketball or young boy watches television, they're seeing in a commercial that is talking about this shoe. And there are no women's shoes at the time now.

18:59 - 19:40

Right. We have evolved. Right. So, all the cues, if I look in the media, if I pick up the newspaper, there's nothing to tell me that anyone else is interested in women's sports because they wouldn't do it. They've had these battles for years and years and years. We're starting to see that now. They sold 87,000 tickets to watch the lionesses. Isn't that a great name? Of England, of the UK play in the finals and win the UEFA Cup. And they now have a friendly and they just sold out 90,000 tickets. So, you know, things are happening that way. Right. Because guess what? The media. All the support systems that guide what's important to us are now guiding us in a much more broader and gender equitable way.

19:40 - 19:50

Awesome. Let's stay with the positive. We could talk for hours around women's sports and the rise and support. Thank you for all you've done and for reminding us of what we need to do to do more.

19:51 - 20:17

So, let's transition to talk about Generation W. In addition to your love of sports, you've said your true passion is really creating opportunities for women and girls and. You launched this non-profit called Generation W, which has an annual Women's Leadership Conference and Generation Wow! Which is a yearlong mentorship program for teen girls. So, tell us about these efforts and about your book on mentorship called Wowza.

20:17 - 20:41

Oh, yes, yes, yes. So, when I when I got home from the WNBA, what I learned so much from that experience is how my heart was so much bound up in making opportunities, as you said, and elevating women and girls. We are important. We're vital to the health of our families, to our communities. Right, to our companies, to our country, to the world.

20:41 - 21:28

Right. I always say, you know, women's hands hold up the world and it's not to bring anyone else down. All it is is like, if I could make a team a sports analogy, if you're a coach of a team and all of us are coaching teams and I know earlier said that tennis is an individual sport. Every sport is a team sport. You might be on the court by yourself, but there's a coach in your family in the box, and then there's trainers and there's nutritionists. And it's you're always part of a team and you're always going to want the best teammates on your team if you want to succeed. And so, would we do that by only picking from 50%, less than 50% of the talent pool, which is historically what's happened for a variety of reasons? No, we wouldn't. So, you know, the vital ness of women contributing and that obviously for our own individual growth and betterment.

21:28 - 22:10

Anyway, so I came home and said I must do something, and I met great people everywhere I went, especially great women. And I said, you know, I want to do something here. I live in the South; I am a northerner. So, let's do something to educate, inspire and connect women. Let's make them more visible not only to themselves, but to the world in which they live. And so, generation was born, and it was exciting. No one, no one knew what I was talking about, or they all pretended at me this after they pretended, I did. But I took the best ideas of everything in the women that I had met along the way, especially many at the Fortune conference, said to me, if you do, something will come. By the way, if you do, something will come. And they did.

22:10 - 22:32

Right. So, here's the book you'll see Down Here. Foreword by Geraldine Laybourne. Jerry always said to me, she said, if you do it, I'll be there. And on our 10th anniversary, I kind of said to any woman or any mayor, anyone, do you really want to support somebody? Tell them that if they do it, you'll be there. It is such a gift anyway, so it's enormously successful.

22:32 - 23:11

The first year we had 700 people show up, we had about 50 speakers. It began as a thought leadership conference and it still is where we in our 12th year coming up exciting focusing on the kinds of whole person. So, we have music and art, but all the kind of resonant, relevant issues that make women it gives us a chance to think about it because we don't have enough time to think today, do we? We really don't. None of us do. And so, it gives you a time to take your head from here, whether it's here to hear and to hear and hear and see these women behind you, because there is such a warm, spiritual embrace of each other. That's beautiful.

23:11 - 23:37

And we added girls in our second year on a stage, we call them generation. Wow. And we had, I think like 970 women our second year. And we said to the girls, who are seven of them, so beautifully diverse because that has been the core of who we are. Who are you, what's important to you? And tell us how we help you. And I think all of us as women feel that tug of what can I do to help somebody else? And sometimes we're not sure. And it was such a compelling session.

23:37 - 24:36

I left there and I said to our team, we’re going to create generation. Wow, we're going to model it after W and nine months later, it's like having a baby, maybe ten we birth generation. Wow. Which is now in its 10th year. It's about leadership and mentorship. It's about surrounding girls and the positive, the possible. And during that journey, we wrote this book called Walden the Girls Guide to the Positive and the Possible. And it's beautiful. Like my friend Jerry said, if you write it, I'll be there. And she was. And she said, Make sure it's different. Make sure it's not like anything else you've seen. And it's built on the stories, the letters of women, girls and even men there, where they would say that their younger selves, their future selves, and then it's surrounded by all of this just very practical advice that we all need and what maybe we don't get in school right by great people who we would want to know just by reading their stories. And now it’s become an accepted curriculum for like the ninth largest school district, the nation in Orlando here in Duval.

24:37 - 24:59

And I should probably end this little treatise here up by saying in a couple of weeks, we'll be going out to the Portland school system and introducing wow to 900 teen girls. And my ADD, they're all athletes. We don't specialize in athletes per se, obviously very dear to my heart. But 900 teen girl athletes in Portland, Oregon working with their school district, and we could not be more excited.

24:59 - 25:21

Oh, well. Huge congrats to you down on what you've built on all these different levels across generations and across geographies. So, I look forward to hearing even more about Generation Wow. And Generation W, I'm sure you won't be confined to Florida for long. As you've mentioned, you're already going across coasts. So that's terrific. And I'll be checking out the book for my daughter as well.

25:21 - 26:00

So, let's pivot to the lightning round if you will. Like I said, we're recording this during the US Open. Serena is going to play tonight in the second round after winning the first round two days ago. Was amazing to watch. Just amazing. Everybody at the U.S. Open has been incredible, but I thought it would be appropriate, given her Vogue article and announcement, to do a little bit of a quick hits, reactions to quotes from her, her essay. So, let's go first quote on work life balance. She wrote, If I were a guy, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labor of expanding our family.

26:01 - 26:23

So, I thought that was so amazing, right? Yeah. Hello. Yes, hello, everybody. The absolute truth. And I've watched so many athletes compete and give birth and compete again. And it's always been this big. Oh, my God. Isn't she amazing? Listen, it's what we do. It's what we must do. Where we are, we are. We are the baby bearers. What can I say?

26:23 - 27:05

Yeah, I second that Serena Ventures. She talked about this, too, in her interview. This was her quote. Well, in front of this quote was her experience that she attended a conference and she thought she couldn't possibly have heard correctly when she heard that it was less than 1% of venture capital funding was going to women and a smaller percentage in that to women of color. So, then she wrote in her essay, I understood then in there that someone who looks like me needs to start writing the big checks sometimes like attracts like men are writing those big checks to one another. And for us to change that, more people who look like me need to be in that position giving money back to themselves.

27:05 - 27:37

First, her ownership of that is admirable, right? On strategically, everything. Yes. And what she's saying is right. It's an invitation to all of us to support each other. The fact that it's what 2% of all venture capital goes to women is unconscionable. Are you telling me that just 2% of women have good ideas, or is it that the team concept of like is stronger than this idea that we are better where our research is when we have more voices and ideas at the table?

27:37 - 28:18

Right. Our allies of public companies, private companies with more diverse boards, we all know this. They perform better. So, like, hello, something is out of whack there. And I think some of it has to do with the way women and men express what they're going to do. A guy will just show up and say, oh, you know what, here's my billion-dollar idea and you're sitting next and thinking, that's crazy. But there's some other guy that wants to hear that billion-dollar thing, you know what I mean? And so that that a woman wants to either, again, this gets crazy, and I don't want to make anyone crazy about it. When you start to parse this, let's leave it with this. Bravo, Serena. I really hope that I will be able to be one of your partners in Serena Ventures.

28:18 - 28:37

So. All right. The last quote was on being a role model. I like to think that thanks to opportunities afforded to me, women athletes feel that they can be themselves on the court, they can play with aggression and pump their fists. They can be strong, yet beautiful. They can wear what they want and say what they want and kick butt and be proud of it all.

28:37 - 28:37


28:38 - 28:40

Another bravo, right? For three.

28:41 - 28:43

I mean, amen. Right? Like, yes.

28:43 - 28:56

Let's talk about her outfits this week. They're amazing. And her daughter matching as well. Just the whole generational story that was present at the U.S. Open was so much bigger than tennis. So, I can't wait to see what happens next.

28:56 - 29:23

All right. Well, Donna, we could go on for another hour. There's no doubt about that. But we need to close out. And, you know, one question that I ask every guest is about this idea of investing with intention for some of our guests. It means really being intentional with financial decisions, prioritizing what's meaningful to them, but it differs for everyone. So, I have a feeling I know how you're going to answer this, but I'm still going to ask, you know, what is investing with intention mean to you in your life?

29:23 - 30:16

Well, I guess when I think about this, the most important resource or asset we have is our time. So, whenever I think about investing with intention, I think about how I want to use my time because it's not replaceable. You know, you can put money in the market, and it can be for this company. And I think that's important. I think about that with intention. But honestly, where do I want to be? Where do I want to? Who do I want to invest in? Who do I want to sit next to? Who do I want to support? All of that. And and clearly, I have made a personal decision about investing. A lot of my time in supporting and elevating and really trying to help develop younger women as well as my peer women. But women and girls and I just as I said earlier, I think it's like Serena said.

30:16 - 30:37

Right. It became clear to her that I she needed to be at the table writing checks. I need to be at the table or helping to create a table where we can all sit and think through and come up with strategies but live into our being, our best selves. And I'm pretty intentional about living that forward.

30:37 - 30:51

Thank you. Donna Orender helped create the table for all that you've done for female athletes, for female executives, and for women and girls in your leadership and mentorship initiatives. What a great conversation. Thank you again for joining me, Donna.

30:52 - 30:55

Oh, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate it.

30:56 - 31:10

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